The good, the bad and the ugly of the Cavs’ elimination; Inside the Browns’ draft approach: Terry’s Talkin’ podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. This week, they hold a day-after analysis from the Cavs’ playoff elimination by the Indiana Pacers on Tuesday night.

They also get into the Guardians and some things to watch as the pitching staff needs some shuffling after the injury to Ben Lively. And they discuss the Browns‘ approach in the 2025 NFL Draft and why they selected the players they did.

Have any questions or comments for the podcast? Send your thoughts and questions in via email to us at sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll try to feature it on an upcoming episode. Also, we are looking for stories or memorable moments you’ve had with Guardians play-by-play voice Tom Hamilton as he prepares for his induction into the Hall of Fame this summer.

Highlights:

• Donovan Mitchell expressed deep disappointment after the Cavs’ playoff exit.
• Mitchell’s commitment to the team is evident and reassuring for fans.
• The Cavs’ playoff performance was marred by injuries and overconfidence.
• Darius Garland’s inconsistency raises questions about his playoff readiness.
• The team needs to address the backcourt dynamics moving forward.
• Jared Allen’s performance was inconsistent and needs improvement.
• Injuries played a role, but the Cavs wouldn’t have won the series regardless, Terry says.
• The Cavs must build around Mitchell to enhance their chances in future playoffs. The Cavaliers are retooling their strategy to focus on three-point shooting.
• Darius Garland’s playoff performance has raised concerns among fans.
• The backcourt dynamics between Mitchell and Garland may need re-evaluation.
• The Cavaliers have trade value in their roster, particularly with Jared Allen.
• The Browns’ draft strategy was measured. Here’s what Terry has been hearing.
• Dylan Gabriel and Shedeur Sanders came at the times the Browns thought appropriate in the draft, as they were determined not to jump too soon.
• The importance of having depth in the running back position is emphasized. Quarterback development requires significant adaptation to new systems.
• Terry on what he sees going down with the Guardians in the next month or so.
• A listener asks about how the recent MLB rule changes are being received a few years after their adaptation.
• The reinstatement of players like Pete Rose opens discussions about their legacies.
• Some listener emails about radio baseball, Ten-Cent Beer Night, and Cleveland’s memorable comeback against Seattle in the playoffs in the 1990s.
• A request for listeners to send in their favorite stories or experiences about Guardians play-by-play voice Tom Hamilton.

Here’s the podcast for this week:

If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.

If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.

You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and as such it contains many spelling and grammar errors.

David Campbell (01:10.599)

Hey, it’s time for Terry’s Talkin’, weekly podcast. David Campbell, your host here, alongside Mr. Terry Pluto. Terry, there are a lot of disappointed Cavs fans today. Maybe we’ll start with the Cavs, right? Why don’t we...

Terry Pluto (01:22.184)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we should and I want to start with something maybe a little different than you Because I think it’s a real positive thing because I’m working on a column on this for tomorrow and that Friday’s paper I’m not sure I’ve ever really heard an athlete after eliminate from the playoffs talk like Donovan Mitchell did so heartfelt so heartfelt about

David Campbell (01:42.449)

How so?

Terry Pluto (01:47.854)

You know, I couldn’t believe we lost. love playing in that arena, that energy, that crowd. We were 0 and 3 at home. I’m reading these exact quotes. We let the city down. This place is special, really special. And we didn’t get it done. I mean, I like that, you know, and he could have played the injury card and he said, yeah, you know, you, you’d like to be better. But he said getting beat down like this. And he said, you’re going to write some stuff by the way, I cleaned up the language about, about us.

David Campbell (01:56.22)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (02:15.714)

That’s gonna be fuel, fuel for everyone. I’ve been here, I understand. We understand now we gotta use it as fuel for next year. Get in the gym, get a nutritionist on and on. And he goes, we’ll be back. He said, I like this, I’m sure they’ll have a discussion with the roster with Kenny and Kobe Altman. But he says, I’d go to bat for every guy in this locker room, willing to die out there for those guys.

David Campbell (02:28.977)

We’ll be back.

Terry Pluto (02:44.878)

I believe in everybody in the room. Now, if you didn’t watch him taking a beating all five games, you think this is like somebody doing a bad patent speech or something, but he went to the foul line 14 times a game. His calf muscle was not good. He couldn’t make a jump shot. He still averaged 34 points. And I’ll tell you something else looking at this. Kenny mentioned this after the game and I kind of am pounding away. They couldn’t get the ball up the court except him.

David Campbell (03:14.181)

Yeah, and he shouldn’t have to do that.

Terry Pluto (03:15.572)

And he didn’t have to do it as absolutely right. And maybe Kenny could have done some more to help the Gars but Garland was there. But he said, I believe in everybody in here. We believe in each other. It’s just that we’re a good team. And for four or five games, three games, we didn’t show up. We didn’t show what we’re capable of. And ultimately, that’s what we’re judged on. Take it to the journalistic bank. Go ahead. Yeah.

David Campbell (03:38.097)

So yeah, I’m glad you’re starting with this. So there were a couple of thoughts I had when I saw this. The first one was, and we’ve talked about this, Terry, all the people nationally, especially, who were like, Donovan Mitchell’s just stopping there. He’s on his way to New York. He doesn’t want to really be there. mean, Cavs fans have to just be really thrilled with how invested Donovan Mitchell is in Cleveland and in this team.

Terry Pluto (03:52.59)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (04:02.093)

Yeah.

David Campbell (04:05.607)

I mean, I think people didn’t see that coming necessarily in terms of just how committed he is to seeing this thing through and how much he likes it here. And the second thing was, know, Yanis has given plenty to the city of Milwaukee and there’s a bunch of talk about where he’s going to go this summer. It’s like, I think it’s nice that Cavs fans can look at their superstar, see what he’s saying and kind of sleep good tonight knowing that he’s not looking to get out of town.

Terry Pluto (04:19.342)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (04:35.343)

A lot of people, lot of superstars would have been like, listen, these guys don’t have it. I don’t want to be here anymore. I want to go somewhere where guys know how to win. And this was the opposite of that, I think. Right?

Terry Pluto (04:40.844)

Yeah, there you go.

Terry Pluto (04:48.33)

or, know, or they do sort of the passive aggressive thing of like, well, you know, we, gave it our all, but we, we, we got, we got to make some upgrades and all that. And actually that would have been true. He could have, but he didn’t play that card at all. and I’m really proud of him for that because he, when I listened to Mitchell, just, I never get the phony antenna up with him. I mean, he just kind of says what he’s thinking and he backs it up on the court.

So that’s really good. And that’s probably actually why I’m hopeful for that. Now look, two more years of this stuff, he may want out, but we’ll worry about that later. and, and I get it. This is his eighth year. I mean, the man is seventh on the all time playoff scoring list at like 28 points a game. You know, and you watch these games, it’s hard to score 30 points in these games, the way they’re played and the way they’re called. and you know, he,

I mean, yesterday he got nine rebounds. You know, he went in there and did that. just, I wanted to start with him because he, he is really curly invested. He knows he shows up at a lot of the other sports events around town. And, so that’s, that’s an important thing. And that’s why, you know, you go back and why Covey Altman traded all those draft picks and everything for him, because a guy like this gives you a chance.

Now you could argue they wouldn’t, you know, or still get stuck in the second round, but you’re not sitting there going, we need to get a star. You’re going, we need to get the right guys around Donovan Mitchell, and make sure that, try to keep them as healthy as possible by the time the, playoffs come around. he’s always going to be bothering, battling. It like this calf muscle thing that he has had for a couple of years, but man, man, you know, what’s for this? These other guys are sitting out. I’m not going to.

you know, throw stones about their different injuries. But Donovan Quirley was hurting and he played through it.

David Campbell (06:53.243)

Yes, and he was playing like 1995 Bulls Knicks basketball. Right? mean, everybody’s like, the game is so much more fluid. Everybody’s shooting threes. And here’s Donovan Mitchell just hurling, hurtling his body into the, yeah. Right, right.

Terry Pluto (06:57.368)

Yeah, I need just...

Terry Pluto (07:04.212)

Cause it gets like, we’re good. Cause I can’t make a jump shot and you know, I, I’m trying to carry them anyway. and I’m sure now here’s a big part of this that I think was critical that I haven’t heard. Cause it’s, mean, I’ve been up here. Well, this needed to throw Tristan Thompson in there and not guys around. Okay. Fine. How does that get the ball up the court against Indiana’s pressure? Okay. I mean, you know what it does? It makes you feel good. It’s a macho thing to say.

Yeah. In some of the games, it could have been more physical, but when Kenny Atkinson was talking about emotional and physical pressure, you’ve started with just that. The guards had trouble getting the ball up the court. Ty Jerome had to back it up, you know, because he was afraid of getting stolen and Garland was just all over the place. I think that the toe thing was real, but I also think it really impacted his confidence. And David, this is the second playoffs in a row now we’ve gone through.

know, garland, looking shaky, dealing with injuries, all that stuff. Any thoughts?

David Campbell (08:08.423)

All right, so let’s do a little bit of a reset here, Terry, because there’s a lot to get through. Maybe we can start with this email we got from Bill Maris from Medina. there’s a lot of different topics we can jump on. All right, so the Cavs have been eliminated in five games, 114-105. Here’s Bill’s email. says, hey, guys, after seeing the result of last night’s game and the second round exit again for Donovan Mitchell and the Cavs, I’m left with a few questions. Number one, how is this exit with this team different from the other first or second round losses that Donovan Mitchell has had?

Terry Pluto (08:14.83)

Sure.

Terry Pluto (08:19.81)

I hear.

David Campbell (08:37.509)

that Donovan Mitchell had in Utah. Is there some sense of rinse and repeat here? Number two, why did Jarrett Allen suddenly disappear as a defensive presence in the last two games of the series? It seemed like the lane was wide open at times for the Pacers when you would think it would be walled off with Allen and Mobley as a defensive presence in there. Number three, how does this team lose three home games in this series? Yikes, were they simply overconfident? Thanks so much for the podcast and the incisive writing. I look forward to it all each week.

Terry Pluto (08:58.594)

Yeah.

David Campbell (09:05.201)

Go Cavs next year. And again, that’s Bill Maris from Medina. All right, so where do you want to start with all that, Terry?

Terry Pluto (09:10.36)

Start with number one, because I forgot what it was. I’m old.

David Campbell (09:12.473)

Okay, so how is this different than Donovan Mitchell’s exits in Utah?

Terry Pluto (09:18.904)

I don’t know enough about Utah situation, but the word in Utah was always, they were a good regular, very similar, good regular season team. But when you look at those rosters in Utah, who was the other star there? You know, they went through kind of different point guards, but they really didn’t have it. In fact, that’s why they decided to break up Rudy Gobert and Mitchell from the rest of the roster to reset, try to get draft picks.

And build again, cause they felt they were just walled off in the second round. and by the way, I’m going to look at that for a column going on the Utah rebuild. Roberta was asking me about that. And it’s like, that has not gone well at all for them. Not at all. And so that’s a thing there, but the problem certainly is not Donovan Mitchell and Rudy go bear who’s, you know, oblivious with, with, Minnesota.

David Campbell (10:01.564)

No.

David Campbell (10:13.223)

Minnesota.

Terry Pluto (10:14.178)

He’ll tell you the problem ain’t him either. So that’s not the problem. Now it was possible. The combination of go bear and Mitchell. Cause go bear really is he’s, he’s a good defensive player, but he’s not tremendously mobile, you know, that kind of thing. And that could have been a problem, but, it just feels like rinse and repeat to Mitchell. know that. And what I liked about him is just doubling down and we got to get it done in Cleveland because the frustration.

you know, with, with different for, you know, for cast fans, this would feel like, this is, so this is like the first round with him and two years of the second round here. I mean, but for him, this is eight, eight of these things, eight of these things after you’re averaging 28 points a game or whatever it is. and I remember, you know, he’d have a bad game here or there, but man, this guy.

This is this, if you’re going to get to the finals or whatever, this is the kind of guy you want. I mean, you know, he’s. He’s not LeBron because LeBron was, you know, playoff LeBron was similar to Mitchell. He’s like seven inches taller and, know, 50 pounds heavier. And he’s, and this is not to knock LeBron. I mean, he is a unique physical specimen, but he also has the drive of an overachiever. know, Mitchell is a star as a driver overachiever, but

He’s listed a six, three. Okay, fine. You know, I used to say I was six foot. I’m five, 10, you know, whatever. but he’s not that kind of guy that could, that can go get like LeBron would go get 15 rebounds in a game. And so they have to just look at this. And I think they really got to look at the back court. You know, we could, I know Jared didn’t have a good Alaska. Well, game four. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

David Campbell (12:05.755)

Yeah, did you want to talk about Jared Allen real quick since he was number two on Bill’s list here and then we’ll move on. go ahead.

Terry Pluto (12:11.374)

Why don’t you I want to look up something why don’t you? Say your thoughts on Gerard Allen, we’ll try to take a look and see

David Campbell (12:17.563)

Well, yeah, mean, the thing about the playoffs is, and the Cavs talked about this, is like every possession matters. I, Jared Allen today, they had their kind of clean out your locker interview day. And I think he admitted pretty much that he wasn’t consistent enough. And like, you got to bring it every game and every possession. And there were games when he was a dominant force and there was game, there were games when you were looking to see if he was on the court. and I, you can’t have that and you, and winning the playoffs. And I think he knows that and.

Terry Pluto (12:24.429)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (12:32.779)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (12:41.879)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (12:47.567)

Listen, these reputations are starting to follow these guys now. And I was interested in Max Struess like today at his interview.

Terry Pluto (12:55.79)

Yeah, where was he other than being in foul trouble? 0-4-7, I think he was in that game. Yeah.

David Campbell (12:59.515)

Yeah, well, again, another guy who was very up and down, but he said, we weren’t ready for game one. The Miami series didn’t prepare us for it. Game two, you can’t lose that one. You gotta close those games out. To me, we have to get tougher mentally and physically. You can talk about it all you want, but until you actually do it, it doesn’t matter. So that’s where Max Truss stands with everything.

Terry Pluto (13:05.932)

Yep. I’m glad he brought that up.

Terry Pluto (13:20.012)

Mm-hmm and Max got Max was a real disappointment. He got a couple quick files. He couldn’t make a shot Now I was looking at Jared stats Going into game for the Miami series plus going into game the dreadful game for in Indiana at that point he was averaging nearly 11 rebounds a game and Then the last two I mean, I don’t know what anybody was doing a game for I mean they they all should have been

You know, I call it the worst playoff game in Cavs history in that. But in game five, know, thought, you know, Jared didn’t really give it that much. One of the things that, cause that kind of was there at the, at the game for a while. Then I also spent some time listening to the national broadcast on TV with, I think it was Greg Anthony, the former UNLV guard, NBA guard. And he was talking about how like in the second quarter, the Cavs are punishing them inside what Allen.

It went mobile and they got away from it. and like when they were out, got up to that 19 point lead at one point, they had a lineup that I really liked out there. It was across the front. had Alan, you had mobile. You had Wade, you had Hunter and Mitchell. And all of a sudden it, the pace slowed down. They had the length bothering the, the Pacers and the calves.

kept getting out, out in front, out in front that way. And that was an interesting lineup and a good thing. And I just think that, you know, when you play the Pacers, it’s a battle of the nickname, you know, the Pacers pace. Nobody brings the ball up to court, pass the half court line faster than the Pacers. Mike Furtillo gave me that stat, something like 4.8 seconds. Nobody throws more passes per possession than the Pacers, which is remarkable when they’re playing that fast.

But the ball just zips all over the court. And so if you’re, if you could put the ball through the rim now and then on offense and especially stop them and get the rebounds, you could really then dictate the pace, which they did for awhile. And I just felt like when Garland was in there and that they, they, they just lost the big guys out there and I’m not excusing everything, but they, you have to give them the ball. You could just look at it. The middle was open.

David Campbell (15:49.019)

Yeah. And Jared Allen needs that. Like he can’t create his own offense most of the time. That’s where it has to happen.

Terry Pluto (15:52.95)

Right. And they got to get on Jared’s butt when he’s five feet from the basket. Don’t throw it to the corner score. You know, that was one thing. maybe somebody really does, you know, during games where they’re strishing or somebody needs to just light a fire on him and let him know. Cause I think down deep behind the smiling, you know, joking, Jared, is a young man who still doesn’t know how good he can be. And I think lacks confidence.

David Campbell (16:00.163)

Yep. Okay.

Terry Pluto (16:22.382)

sometimes in himself. Now, big men, live in, I learned this from Wayne Embry and a couple other people, they live in such a different world than we do. I mean, everywhere they walk into a place, people look at them. Well, that’s as they feel very self-conscious. know, none of us, I doubt there’s anybody here that people are going to go up to them and say, Hey, is it raining up there? You know, that was, yeah. you about, Will Chamberlain told me that that was the thing that used to really bother him the most. He said they come up to him.

David Campbell (16:43.141)

Yeah. Or are you a basketball player?

Terry Pluto (16:52.192)

And they say, it raining up there? goes, I really, I talked to, I interviewed Will a couple of times over the years and once it’s from my book, Tall Tales, Will said, you know what you want to do when a guy says that? You want to spit on the top of his head. How’s that buddy? Yeah, it’s raining up here and there you are. He goes, I never did it, but it’s a different thing. you know, our people say, man, if I was as big as Jared Allen, I’d have 30 points a game. No, you wouldn’t.

David Campbell (17:06.023)

It is raining, yes.

David Campbell (17:23.335)

All right, so there’s kind of a big question that I want to ask you, Terry, that I think you answered in your column today, but we can address it here too. And then I want to kind of do a little segment called, if I was a Cavs fan, dot, dot, dot, and get your thoughts on some things. But the injuries, I don’t think the Cavs blame them. I think Rick Carlisle, the Pacers coach, kind of said, like, we were at our best and the Cavs weren’t. So he kind of gave a little bit of credence. Did the injuries matter? Would the Cavs have won this series without the injuries in your mind?

Terry Pluto (17:24.523)

Yes.

Terry Pluto (17:34.04)

Okay.

Terry Pluto (17:45.87)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (17:53.526)

Won the series? No. Were they won and maybe another game or two? Yes. Because I think Garland would have been moving better, at least get the ball off the court. That would have helped. I don’t know what to make of Mobley because he missed the ankle, but then when he came back, he played pretty well. I mean, pretty well. And other than they would forget about him now and then, but he did. And I get it, Hunter dislocated right thumb.

David Campbell (18:13.403)

Yeah, we did.

Terry Pluto (18:22.766)

that’s hard, it mattered. But the fact is, and I will give, I’ve always respected Carlisle, but I even came away with more respect for him because right now I’m looking up the, here we go. Since January 1st, Indiana is 42 and 16. They were 34 and,

Yeah, they were 34 and 14 heading into the playoffs and they won both of their series in five games.

So, know, they were...

David Campbell (18:59.463)

Pretty impressive.

Terry Pluto (19:09.4)

They were playing as well as anybody in the NBA as the season came to a close. Now at the streusel’s point, and I think is valid, Miami didn’t prepare them at all. And I remember I was talking to Mike Fratello in the middle of the playoffs, the first round. And Mike was saying, you know, that’s the danger sometimes. You kind of blow through the regular season, then you, you you get a...

a weak opponent the first round because Miami had went through all that stuff with Jimmy Butler and everything else. And you just think, okay, here we are. Well, it took five games for Indiana to get rid of Milwaukee. They had some real battles in there. And I think they also just battled to win their 52 games. you know, it was, it was more of a struggle for them.

David Campbell (20:00.195)

Yeah, I guess so. just, the Cavs went through this last year, right? Like they played Orlando last year, they played Boston. Like they know what’s involved. So I get what they’re saying maybe in terms of the speed of the game and everything. Like there was a huge leap from Miami to the Pacers, but like, all right, so you take one game to figure it out, but like then it’s like, let’s go. Like what do you, you know what this is from last year. So I don’t really buy that. I don’t know.

Terry Pluto (20:04.45)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (20:08.942)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (20:20.983)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (20:27.798)

Yeah, I mean, I do think they would just were very, they were overconfident. That’s all.

David Campbell (20:35.387)

Going back to the question from Bill’s letter or email earlier. all right. Let’s try this. If I was a Cavs fan, I got a few statements here, Terry, that I wanted to get your thoughts on. So if I was a Cavs fan, I would be wondering what was going on with Darius Garland this series. And if I was a Cavs fan, I’d be wondering if he’s ever gonna be a clutch playoff player. And the reason I say that is because if you watched him early in this series, he’s on the bench laughing it up.

Terry Pluto (20:38.882)

Yeah, yeah, they were overconfident. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (20:53.656)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (21:05.265)

with Evan Mobley, you know, when the Cavs are losing, he comes back and he committed an offensive foul on one play and he’s laughing about that. I haven’t seen Donovan Mitchell laugh in a month or smile. And here’s Darius Garland acting like it’s a January game against the Pelicans down in New Orleans. And I just thought he was, I didn’t like what I saw from his body language. And I think fans might have been rubbed the wrong way by that.

Terry Pluto (21:16.706)

Yeah.

David Campbell (21:35.461)

You can’t equate a guy smiling on the court with why he didn’t play well, I just, you talk about the mentality and I did not see a playoff meanness from him in this series, in terms of the body language. And I wonder if he’s ever going to be because, you know, I don’t know. What do you think?

Terry Pluto (21:41.806)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (21:51.662)

Well, yeah, well, will you even be healthy? I mean, that’s another thing. Seems like by the end of the year, he’s always worn down with something or other. Oh, I mean, Garland stats, he shot 34 % from the field. He shot 17 % on threes. Um, it was bad. And he just,

It seemed like too, when he got up past, half court, now all of a he wanted to like get some kind of isolation thing and go one on one. And since he wasn’t making a jumper when he went in there, I don’t know. He, he looked overwhelmed and he looked, he’s looked overwhelmed, you know, a fair amount of time in his career in the playoffs. And also just in terms of your fit, does he fit with Donovan? You know, Donovan so many times is over the last few years has been

Darius is cheerleader and sports psychologist. You can see it on the floor, but I did notice this time Donovan. Well, maybe he was just so busy trying to kind of keep himself together physically, but that, that was a problem. And you know, a year. Yeah.

David Campbell (23:01.881)

It was, it was a striking comparison, but yeah, like Darius Garland is like in hockey, there’s a thing where in the playoffs, you never talk about your injury until you’re done. And in the middle of this series, Darius Garland was telling reporters about people don’t know what I’m going through and how painful it is. And when I saw that I’m like, this could be some trouble for the Cavs. if this he’s already making kind of excuses for why he’s not playing well and the series isn’t even over.

Terry Pluto (23:11.939)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (23:15.586)

Yeah, I’ll throw it, yeah.

Terry Pluto (23:23.853)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (23:28.364)

Yeah, Mitchell, Mitchell wouldn’t get into it. Mitchell refused to get into his injuries. You know, I think he said, yeah, I’m bothered by something, but I’m playing on. Yeah, right. Yeah. So he told Chris and that’s, and also I will say this. heard, we hear very little from Mowgli.

David Campbell (23:32.047)

Yes, I’m going to be there Tuesday. Was what you told Chris Fedor the other night. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (23:45.132)

You know about his injury. He just played. mean, you look at Mo, you know, Mo boy, I’m looking, he really had a good playoff against Indiana. He averaged 18 points, 9.8 rebounds. and, he shot, 58 % from the field. By the way, you’re leading three point score shooter in the playoffs among, you know, guys that started was Evan mobile at 43%.

David Campbell (23:45.137)

True. Yeah. Yep. You just showed up.

Terry Pluto (24:17.034)

Now what happened here too is, you know, the calves were retooling how they play. They were going more into Celtic mode of spread them out, fire the threes and they just, you know, the Cavalanche thing, they just bury teams in the regular season and against Milwaukee. I do, excuse me, against Miami and where I do think Indiana with the speed or whatever now really kind of took some of that stuff away.

And they were willing to let that middle be open if the calves would exploit. That’s what, when Mitchell, that’s why he just kept going in there. He realized, okay, my jumper’s not working. I’m going to just keep going in there and going in there. But I just, I don’t know what Kenny was doing in terms of trying to get the big men, the ball more or what, but, um, mobilely, I have some people criticizing him. I don’t have a problem with how he played. 34 minutes, 18 points, 10 rebounds, shooting 58%.

That’s a winning performance in the playoffs.

David Campbell (25:18.161)

Yep. Do you think, so Terry, a year ago, and you wrote, you’ve written about this, that you didn’t think the Mitchell Garland backcourt was something that was tenable in the future in terms of playoff success. And I think you’re, you’re back on that. You think they need to make a move here, right? And we’ll have a lot of time to talk about that this summer.

Terry Pluto (25:30.733)

Sure.

Yeah, I would like to see, right, they would have to do that. you probably wouldn’t do it because he’s a max player or you bring Garland off the bench.

You start with, well right now it’d be somebody like Struz, but there may be some other bigger guard that you could pick up or something. And you try to work it that way. But I have not seen Garland rise to the occasion, you know, in the various playoffs. So just, just have it. And it’s a, you know, it’s a discouraging thing if you’re, you’re a cast fan because, you know, he’s a

David Campbell (25:47.417)

and put in strews.

Terry Pluto (26:16.526)

two-time all-star and he is supposed to be able to you know to do these things and I’m just looking you know actually Garland’s numbers against the Celtics were better than I thought on one regard he averaged 17 points but he only shot 40 % from the field and 30 % on three see that’s the thing he’s supposed to be a really good shooter and you look at what he shot

You know in those things now i’m taking a look at the well the one the one difference this was This was the Against the nicks against the nicks. He was better than I thought. This was a couple years ago garland averaged 21 points Shot 44 from the field 39 on threes so that was better. I I seem to just remember jalen brunson Tearing him up, but at least he’s no had by the way had garland put that those numbers together

against the Pacers that I just read. If he had average 21 and shot, you know, 44 from the field and 39 on threes, this series is still going. They may lose, but this series is still going.

David Campbell (27:29.691)

Yeah. And the other thing, yeah, this was not a great matchup for the Cavs either. I think in terms of roster construction, like the Pacers are a very switchable team. Like there’s not many guys on that team that you’re like, we’re going to try and isolate him and pick on him. Garland is always going to be that. And I think the idea of maybe coming off the bench with him might, might hold some merit, Terry. I don’t know.

Terry Pluto (27:35.746)

No.

Terry Pluto (27:45.875)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (27:52.288)

Yeah, because I think he’s but that’s going to you don’t have to sell it to him and. But.

Because remember a year ago there was that report that if Mitchell resigned that Garland wanted to be traded, I don’t know how true it was. But my guess is it was probably something at least his agent was thinking about. well, Mitchell, know, Mitchell’s the franchise and I still like the ball in Mitchell’s hands quite a bit if he’s got the right people there because he’s an elite passer. He really is. When he doesn’t feel he has to do everything.

So this will be fun to talk about. I’m far more concerned about the back court than the front court. Now they want to bring in another big guy, know, to a better back of center or something like that. That’s fine. But the back court, I think was exposed by Indiana because they had trouble getting the ball up the court.

David Campbell (28:50.075)

All right, I got two more of these if I was a Cavs fan. Sorry, we can go through them real quick. If I was a Cavs fan, I would be wondering what this series means for Ty Jerome’s contract this off season. I think he made himself a lot of money during the regular season and I’m wondering if he maybe cost himself a little bit by just the Cavs couldn’t go to him because he wasn’t playing well. What do you think of that? Any logic to that that he might have caused himself a little bit of money in the playoffs by not?

Terry Pluto (28:52.568)

Okay.

Terry Pluto (29:00.782)

Eh-hem.

Terry Pluto (29:15.512)

Sure.

Well, now you’re back to, you’re looking at him, that this is a really good guy to come off the bench. You’re not thinking this is a guy that boy, you know, if we start him, he could average 18 or 20 a game like he did at different times during the regular season. So then you saw that it was funny. The kind of plotting moves that he had that worked so well against just about most of the teams. And certainly Miami, see Miami is a, an older or.

David Campbell (29:19.335)

being able to contribute as much as you want.

Terry Pluto (29:47.854)

slower team and that Indiana just took him right out of the game McConnell and those guys just went right at him He had trouble getting the ball. Then he then he won. got to do something I could do so he’s forced in the long threes He’s dribbling into traffic getting shots blocked Yeah, I think right it might help the calves resign the guy because He’s in he’s in a good spot here, you know, that’s the old thing of

David Campbell (30:05.179)

Did not have a lot of space to operate, you’re right.

Terry Pluto (30:18.03)

When you go to take a guy who’s a pretty effective bench player off a really good team and your team’s not that good, he can really get exposed. And so don’t overpay for that guy. That’s one of those NBA things. Um, and you keep, and if the player’s smart, he makes a good deal to stay where he is with that team where he is really, his skills are underlined and some of his deficiencies are hidden.

David Campbell (30:47.803)

Yeah. Well, that’ll be one of the interesting storylines that we’ll be watching here this summer. We’ll see. All right. So I got one more. If I was a Cavs fan, I would be glad. Like Ty Jerome and Deandre Hunter have been through this. I know it’s a rough day for Cavs fans, but like Ty Jerome and Deandre Hunter, when they were at Virginia, right? It was the 2017-2018 season. They went into the NCAA tournament 31 and two, and then they became, Virginia became the first number one seed to ever lose.

Terry Pluto (30:51.118)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (31:01.507)

Yeah.

David Campbell (31:16.999)

to a number 16 seed in the NCAA tournament in the history of the tournament. Ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter. It was Maryland Baltimore County. UMBC. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That was at a 15-2 I’m trying to remember. yeah, but then what did, but then what did Virginia do the next season? They came back with, Ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter and they won the whole thing. So.

Terry Pluto (31:21.016)

Was that Mercer though? They got beat. I forget who they was. Maryland, Baltimore County. Yeah. I knew it was somebody those. I think it was Mercer knocked off Duke one year.

Yeah, it could have been.

David Campbell (31:42.471)

These guys know what it’s like to be at the lowest of lows and to come back from that. So I think if you’re a Cavs fan, you have to feel good about that.

Terry Pluto (31:45.55)

And also, right, they do that and they’re good guys. They play well together.

The nice thing we’re talking about with the calves is other than Ty Jerome, you don’t have any pretty significant who’s a free agent.

So therefore you have guys actually who have...

trade value. You know, if you want to trade Jared Allen, you can get quite a bit for him, I think, because he’s not a max player. You want to trade Deandre Hunter. You can get quite a bit for him. I don’t know what you would get for Garland because he is a max player and they’d be looking at saying, yeah, right. that’s, that’s, that’s there you go. So it’s a, it’s interesting to see what they will do. But I mean, the night is frustrating. This is

David Campbell (32:26.417)

Yeah, he does have three seasons left, I think, right after this one. So that’s one positive.

Terry Pluto (32:41.282)

I mean, we’re talking real NBA basketball here. We’re talking about playoffs and we’re talking about having a superstar that resigned here and likes to be here. I think Kenny is an excellent coach. I wish he had not dwelled on the, the physical part of the being filed early in the game. He should have done it once and dropped it. I think he went like twice over three days, you know, stop it, Kenny. That gets in your guys heads. and also.

I will say this about Kenny and you know, I have a relationship with Kenny, that this is the first time in his career. He was a head coach of a team with great expectations. Cause when he was at Brooklyn, yeah, the last year they brought in Kyrie and Durant, Duran, Duran blues, Achilles, whatever it was, but that was just a mess. But there he was just in the building situation here. It’s like, you know, we’re giving you a fast race car.

You better put this thing to the floor and get out there in front of the field. And you know, they did all, he actually did all the stuff that he said he would do and they wanted done. They kept the minutes down with all the starters. They played the bench more than ever. They want a ton of games without really gunning the team to win 64 games. And they still fell in the second round. That I’m sure is one of those things internally. That’s frustrating for

David Campbell (34:06.521)

All right. That was a lot to go through. Terry, anything else you want to mention real quick about the calves before we take a break here?

Terry Pluto (34:11.502)

No, other than, you know, I’ll be curious to see what they’re going to do. I mean, but this is not, you know, blow up the blow up the team eat dirt and die. None of that stuff. Um, it’s still a team with guys in their middle to late twenties under contract. Uh, this, you know, you drop this team into about 22 or 24 other NBA cities. They would be glad to trade you their roster for this roster.

David Campbell (34:37.403)

Yes. And the runway is long as we’ve talked about and as Kobe Altman has talked about.

Terry Pluto (34:40.652)

Yeah, Kobe Altman is the main, he should be an air traffic controller. He’s always talking about runways.

David Campbell (34:45.319)

That’s right. Hey, there’s a lot of topics here with the Cavs. If you have questions, things you’d like to see the Cavs do this off season, we have a lot of time this summer to talk about all that. Send us an email at sports at cleveland.com. If you want to throw out some Cavs ideas or anything else that we talk about here or something story or anything else you want to share, again, sports at cleveland.com. Put Terry’s talking in the subject line and we’ll try and get it on the next podcast. So, all right, we’ll take a quick break here, Terry. And when we come back,

Terry Pluto (35:12.738)

Yes.

David Campbell (35:15.055)

We are going to talk about the Browns and I want you to get into, you have some inside scoop on the Browns draft approach. So we’ll get into that, talk some guardians as well and some more of your emails. We return on Terry’s talking.

David Campbell (39:08.837)

Hey, we’re back on Terry’s talking. Quick reminder about Terry’s newsletter comes out every Wednesday. Although there won’t be one next week. Terry’s going to be taking a couple days off, but it will be back in two weeks on the 28th. All kinds of behind the scenes insight. You’ll get stuff first before anywhere else, even on our podcast here. And lots of great contract info and behind the scenes things that Terry is thinking about. So check that out. You can go to cleveland.com slash Pluto. There’s a blue bar at the top. Click on that, and you can sign up and subscribe.

All right, let’s get into the Browns, Terry. I guess we’re start with this email, because I know you have some things you wanna talk about about the Browns draft approach. Here’s an email. says, Haslam needs Dion for the same reason he needed Manziel. Distraction, shiny. Shiny thing. The creation of drama to take the focus off the fact that the franchise is a dumpster fire. OBJ’s daddy and Manziel will pale in comparison to the off-field drama that Dion will bring.

Terry Pluto (39:43.453)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (39:51.074)

Hahaha!

David Campbell (40:04.049)

for Haslam and that comes to us from Jackson. I assume it’s not you Jackson. Jackson sent that in. Terry, you got a lot of, it could be, you never know. You got some kind of behind the scenes stuff about how the Browns approached the draft, why they did what they did. You want to get into that real quick?

Terry Pluto (40:07.374)

Mm-hmm.

Maybe it is.

Terry Pluto (40:20.02)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that part that’s kind an easy narrative, but

Jimmy’s trying to get a stadium built and he knows Shiny Objects doesn’t get it done. He’s got to have a team that is willing and I really believe that partly fueled that big, the quote big swing they took for Deshaun Watson.

start winning and then kind of like it all comes together. Watson’s got us playing for the super bowl. I want the dome stadium, all this, this right a conduit, you know, the perfect storm to create exactly this football empire in Cleveland. And of course, you know, Watson got hurt. It was bust out. So I don’t think should do her Sanders at anything to do with that, not a fifth round pick. so we’ll talk about the draft, but I just wanted to kind of put that away.

Terry Pluto (41:20.566)

You can argue very well that maybe Jimmy Hansel doesn’t know how to win, but I would disagree with anybody saying he doesn’t want to win. Wanting and knowing how are two different things, but he definitely wants to win. He wouldn’t be redoing these contracts and putting up front in all this money and everything else. unless he wanted to win, knowing how to get it done as a whole is the harder part.

Just like in the draft, you always say, I always say, it’s much easier to collect draft picks than make draft picks.

David Campbell (42:00.636)

All right, so what did you hear about the way the Browns were rating Dylan Gabriel, Shadour Sanders, why they ended up with two quarterbacks, a lot of kind of behind the scenes stuff that I think fans might want to hear about here.

Terry Pluto (42:13.806)

Well, let’s start with the Hunter thing. weren’t committed to taking a Hunter until they were able to really make sure they were able to get that second, first, the first round pick in 2016 from Jacksonville. And I think, yeah, 26, excuse me. And then also I think they were arguing about like a second or third round pick in this year ended up being a second round pick. Basically the Bra’s got what they wanted.

David Campbell (42:28.039)

26. Yep.

Terry Pluto (42:41.974)

And so if you look at that, what they did, the trade right now is Mason Graham. It’s a Duncan’s from Ohio state and it’s Dylan Sampson from Tennessee. So that’s what they’ve got. And they still have the 26 draft pick hanging out there. they had Graham rated among the top five players. And so they were very content to take him.

They had junkins rated over Hendrickson and just about everybody else. with, he had Trevion Henderson from all house state fans. know that was, they just think that, not that he could be another Nick chub, but sort of he has chub like characteristics, you know, big, tough running back succeeded in the sec succeeded in the big 10 very good in some big games. Kind of keeps his mouth shut.

David Campbell (43:17.584)

Henderson, Trevion Henderson from Ohio State.

Terry Pluto (43:39.342)

plays ball, does the right stuff. And they wanted to redo the running back room and they were not planning on taking Samson from Tennessee, but they had him, you know, these guys, they kind of developed their draft board and they put values on them, good or bad. I said, and that’s the only thing, it’s a lot easier to develop a good draft board than have them, have that draft board be correct.

But they just thought Samson, had, heard a third round grade on him. He was available in the fourth round. And they said, we got to take this guy. We’ll have two guys, you know, that could help on special teams or just this way. got some depth there because they’re back to, they want to run the ball. I mean, fans should, should like this. And I was telling one of the top people from the Browns. said, I don’t like this. You’re getting back that to, they’re, really working on the zone blocking with the Wundrum, the new, the new, offensive line coach.

So they were content to do that. Then of course comes the quarterbacks. Were you shocked about Dylan Gabriel?

David Campbell (44:50.407)

little bit. Yeah. Cause there hadn’t been much pre-giraffe connection between them, but obviously he liked them and they liked him and they might’ve gone a little higher than maybe other people had them rated. But Hey, when you find, what do they say about a quarterback? When you find a guy you really like, you got to take him. Right. So they did.

Terry Pluto (45:08.96)

Yeah. And you’re in the third round. mean, fine. Something like Joe Banner told me these stats. It’s like 28 % of third rounders end up like starting for three years. That’s about it. Most of you are getting role players, special teams, guys, part-time scouts. He also told me that from the fourth round down, you often will find in many drafts guys who were picked up as undrafted free agents.

starting more games over a three year period than guys in those rounds. So it’s kind of like, and that’s why even the payroll that the NBA NFL has reflects that. Cause you always hear like, well, I think Chidor, he got four years, 4.2 million. I think it’s like 300,000 is guaranteed. That’s it. Something like that.

David Campbell (45:59.067)

Yeah, he was making jokes about how small his signing bonus was to the last week. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (46:02.262)

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Compared to, yeah, he probably bought a car worth more money than that from a $6 million at Colorado. So they had Dylan Gabriel rated as a third round pick. He was there. They took him. Now my source told me there was one other team. He knows they had them rated as the late third round and another team fourth.

He’s not saying everybody had them that high, but he said there were a couple of other teams that were interested in the Browns East Coast at Browns. And he said that the Browns were concerned that they might not get Gabriel. So they didn’t want to wait till the fourth. They had him as a third round pick. So they took him. And clearly they didn’t have Chidora rated that high because they took a second running back in the fourth round, even though they already took one because they just felt that this guy,

They really believe between those two running backs, at least one of them is going to be a big time impact player. That’s their feeling. And bring them both in here. And why not? We’re going to run the ball. And suddenly you’re not looking at, you know, Pierre Strong and Jerome Ford or whatever. You’re looking at two guys who are decorated college players at the hardest pro. They both played in the SEC because Junkers was at Ole Miss. And then Junkers also thrived in the Big 10. So.

That was all that, but then came Shador. And they, they, think they had a fourth round grade on him. I’m not positive, but I think that’s what they had. Currently they didn’t have a third and they didn’t have a high fourth or they would have taken him, but he’s still sitting there. So that ended up in the fifth round. They put together, I forgot what they went a sixth and a seventh or whatever it was and they got him and their feeling was.

Remember what I said before about what percentage of these guys in the fourth and fifth rounds, it’s less than, you you start getting fifth, sixth round, seventh round. You’re talking about 15 % of those guys ever in the starting for like three years. So they’re thinking the average fifth round guy is a special teams guy. Maybe he’s a nickel defensive back for lucky, you know, maybe he’s a, uh, one of those tight end H backs that comes in in a special situation on offense or.

Terry Pluto (48:19.182)

We always say, this is what I was told the Browns are saying internally. They always say, well, the most important position in the field, David Campbell is.

David Campbell (48:28.561)

quarterback.

Terry Pluto (48:30.038)

Why can’t we have two? Why not two? Almost like the two running back. Well, maybe one of these guys will come out and they figure.

David Campbell (48:31.662)

That’s right.

David Campbell (48:37.071)

Especially when one of the guys in your quarterback room is 40 years old. Why not take two, right?

Terry Pluto (48:40.334)

Yes. And the other one is trying to rebuild his career and you have no quarterback. Now you could say this creates maybe an awkward situation for Stefanski. First of all, Stefanski by now should be majored in awkward situations after having dealt with Deshaun Watson. The difference is he’s going to get to pick his quarterback. The front office is not going to be saying, you know, we got to make that Watson thing work. I mean, we put all this money in traffic.

I mean, what’s the investment in any of these guys? Flacco is a one-year contract, know, pickets a one-year contract, a third-round contract, and a fifth-round. No, you know, basically this is a, it was almost like a rummage sale, put together, hoping to find a jewel or a great antique. that’d be the older guy, younger guy, whatever. And in the room. And so they just know, well, the antique could be worth a lot of money. It depends. So at that point.

David Campbell (49:29.895)

We won’t tell Flacco you called him an antique.

Terry Pluto (49:39.194)

they was, know, he Sanders really didn’t get into their plans until they already had Gabriel taken and then he started thinking about it. And they also think, you know, sometimes you could trade one of these guys within a year and at least get a fifth or six. mean, then they get a fifth round pick back for Josh Dobbs. I mean, they’ve gotten value out of these guys who are just so, so, so they just thought there’s no downside. They believe that, you know, they’re going to stick with this, you know,

You’ve got to earn everything, Chidor, and we don’t have to keep you. And so that’s, and they did spend a lot of time with Chidor and also Hunter, because they were doing a lot of work on Hunter, when they were out of Colorado. So they feel that they’re, they’re the right place for them. We’ll see.

David Campbell (50:30.471)

Well, and as you say, Terry, they’ve gone from basically having no options, which is play Deshaun and make it work, to having these four options this year. And then if none of these are where they want to be next year, they package their two first rounders and try to move up and take somebody next year.

Terry Pluto (50:35.362)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (50:43.406)

Hmm

Exactly. And they could even throw in one of these guys and one of those trades too. So that’s how they feel about it. And look, I, I, I’m quarterback drama out, Dave. I’ll tell you right now. I mean, that’s my only objection to Sanders is just all the, you know, just the hype about him. But the fact is,

David Campbell (51:03.151)

Yeah, I just wish, I wish everybody would just kind of chill out a little bit. Like there were people like who won the day last week? Was it Dylan Gabriel or she they’re throwing against no defense and rudimentary routes. And we don’t know what the coaches are telling them to do. Like it doesn’t matter. None of it matters. I mean, you want to, you want to interview them after to hear what they’re feeling about how things are going, but like, let’s not do a daily quarterback Derby on day one of rookie mini camp. It’s, it’s just crazy.

Terry Pluto (51:10.392)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (51:22.069)

Yeah, I mean.

Yeah

No, no. And now the nice thing that now I was told about Sanders, now, Don Gabriel has been to three schools and I don’t know, like three or four different offensive coordinators that he’s he could, he could play under center. He could play in the shotgun, just about every offense out there he’s had, know, should doors always been in the shotgun. So I mean, just getting used to taking a snap under center, bring the guys out of the huddle, all that kind of stuff.

That’s gonna be, that is new for him. know, play action. And that they think is gonna take some work. And these people think he’s just gonna step in and start. Cause they’re not gonna run that offense. Heck, they tried to run it last year with Deshawn. You saw how good that looked. They’re not gonna run that. And so he’s gonna have to learn these other things.

David Campbell (52:20.891)

Yeah, all new footwork and mechanics and the whole bit.

Terry Pluto (52:24.468)

Right now, the good thing is if he wants to, think he’s a, as I would kept saying, about three times as my source told me, he’s really a good kid. And he says, we were convinced to put the work in, but he’s got a lot of work to do. And now he’s going to be in that room where there’s going to be a lot of pressure to do the work with Flacco and with Pickett and with Dylan. So they’re going to be on him.

And I think, you know, he’ll have to respond, but he’s got a, basically he’s got a lot of making up to do the Colorado situation and Jack and, uh, uh, where’d he play Jackson state before that? Um, and even going back to high school where he always was under his father’s tutelage. That was not the best preparation meantime, you know, which I had written a couple of weeks ago and my source told me again that not having an agent, having dad do it, that just.

David Campbell (53:04.496)

Yep, Jackson State.

Terry Pluto (53:20.238)

took a situation that was tenuous and made it worse. And, you know, we’re not going to talk to this team because we think we’re going to the top five or 10. And, you know, they’ve just misjudged a lot of stuff. So, but if you notice like at the press conference, I’m going to try to get the exact quote from Barry, but I believe he says something like, we don’t hold family members against players we draft. In other words, there is something really close to that. And, and I think that’s fair.

David Campbell (53:46.117)

Yeah, that was pretty much it.

Yeah. All right, Terry, anything else on the Browns we want to get into here? Yeah, they’re going to be heading into OTAs here and then June mini camps. So we’ll be getting to see some football with full rosters and see how things go out in Berea.

Terry Pluto (53:54.7)

No, I think that’s, that was enough for that.

Terry Pluto (54:07.284)

they’re very, very, very excited about Fanon. The kid from the tight end from Bowling Green. And Kent McKinley, former safety from Kent McKinley. I think it’s like a one-star recruit or something like that. It’s just incredible. They just think that this is going to be Kevin Stefanski’s new favorite toy. Be able to move him around.

David Campbell (54:12.167)

Tight end from Bowling Green. All right.

David Campbell (54:29.083)

Yeah, I mean, you watch him, he’s hurdling guys and putting out, doing spin moves. It’s things you don’t see from most NFL tight ends. So I think they are going to have some fun.

Terry Pluto (54:32.598)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (54:37.502)

And, they just, they are more interested in kind of bracketing with the Joku and a really impact pass catching tight end. Then they were taking what they would consider the so-so receiver in the draft. Now you could argue, see how that goes. but they just think, you know, remember when Flacco was playing tight ends, got the ball a lot. It was Amari Cooper in a tight end show.

And I think that, uh, so there’s your Jerry Judy in the tight end show. don’t know enough about Pickett to say that my guess is Gabriel probably throw it wherever you tell them to throw it. And, uh, so that’s, you know, I mean, he’s had everybody telling them all kinds of different ways to throw it. You don’t survive all that. What are you playing like 64 college games or something? He’s like a five year NFL, you know, veteran, uh, when you look at all the experience.

David Campbell (55:27.471)

Yeah. Yeah.

David Campbell (55:35.643)

All right, let’s move into the Guardians, Terry. They are 25 and 17. They’re two and a half games behind the Tigers in the American League Central. There’s been a lot going on with the Guardians. And I know you keep a good eye on the minor leaguers. And we were talking about CAFUS last week. So I’m going to just throw it to you here. Gabriel Arias has been moved over to shortstop. Rokio got sent down last night. Ben Lively got put on the injured list.

Terry Pluto (55:38.126)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (55:52.001)

Well.

Terry Pluto (56:02.35)

Well, I hate it. Yeah.

David Campbell (56:02.491)

There’s a lot going on here. How do you see things shaking out? And yeah, just give us kind of like, how will the next maybe month look here? How do you see things going down?

Terry Pluto (56:10.242)

Well, they’re going to be looking for more starting pitchers. always are anyway. You know, Doug Nicasie, he came up, he had one bad outing. I wouldn’t hold that against them at all. Parker Messick is a guy that I liked from that. It was that, was it like the prospects game, whatever they called them, spring training that they had, I had heard about him, but I could probably get to see a pitch. Yeah, that guy looked and he looking good down there. think he might get the next call to come up.

David Campbell (56:28.421)

Right, where they have the top prospects go against each other, yep.

Terry Pluto (56:37.952)

Especially if it’s going to be for like more than one star. So he’s a guy to keep an eye on Nick hazy, know, or that’s two of them there The bullpen there finally they have this guy Nick and right that they love and he he had had he’s a cancer survivor and He was pitching very well last year and hurt his shoulder now. He’s back, you know, so so we’ll see of course, know, you’ve got Bieber and means

waiting to come off of this, hopefully by the middle of the summer. And you hope at least one of them could pitch like Matthew Boyd did last year. And maybe that that’s what the old, most of you were talking about the two running backs or two quarterbacks. Well, two Tommy jobs, you hope you get one, uh, that’ll help you. So that’s when you look at the situation there. Second base, they were pretty much all set to bring up Brito and send down Roque when Brito broke his thumb.

So that took care of that and he was going to play second areas was going on over to short. So now fortunately for them, Daniel Schneevin is having a heck of a year. I don’t know how long it’s going to last, but you know, he could hold the fort till Brito gets back. Uh, Bazzana is hitting over 300 this month and double A, but there’s, they’re not going to rush him to the majors at all. They, they want to make sure he just needs to get more at bats. And, and I also think the little bit I’ve been around.

David Campbell (58:00.953)

and still struggling a little bit against lefties, right? Yeah.

Terry Pluto (58:03.598)

Yes, yes he is. And I just think this guy is so driven, you know, all the stuff that’s attracted to him, to the guardian. So, and so into the everything video and analytics or whatever, he could be like making, you know, looking at six sides of a square. In other words, really overthinking some things at times. Um, and so that’s, that’s kind of a, Messick is a, is a guy to look at. You know, we got Wilson up here that there.

I mean, Jonathan Rodriguez is hitting. don’t know what to make of it. They should send. would send a big Christmas down if he’s not going to play. Uh, what’s the, what’s the point right now? I mean, you could flop big Christmas with Jonathan Rodriguez. They’re both right-handed hitters. And then you do your plutonium with Brennan, um, there in, in, in the outfield. I don’t know. You know, they are committed to seeing if they could get some more out of Nolan Jones.

Maybe a week from now that changes, but I was told that the other day that they’re not in any hurry to get rid of Nolan Jones. I was not told that about big Christmas nor as they told that about Rokeo on the next day they sent him out. Um, but that’s when I found out that. Yeah. Although, you know, somebody going to claim a guy in one 63. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, it’s, I mean, that’s, I mean, really, I mean, he’s.

David Campbell (59:17.127)

And they can’t send Jones down, right? They can’t send Jones down, so.

David Campbell (59:25.275)

Nah, true.

Terry Pluto (59:31.286)

He was available in spring training and the best they got from was Tyler Freeman. I mean, it’s just, you know, that was, and I don’t think any other teams, probably the Nagardians reading Bitten on the guy. So that’s a quick look for them. Meanwhile, how many bases are Jose steel the other day? Three or four? Yeah. I mean, just, it just goes on with him. It’s just one of the most remarkable things to watch. and then also.

David Campbell (59:49.086)

my gosh, well three in one night, right? Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:00:00.558)

This is what can drive you nuts about baseball. I had written off areas He had over 580 major league at bats over a couple years hitting about 220 seen have like a lot of brain farts in the field Once in a while he has them but you know, he’s a different player it it kicked in for him, you know, and I think some of it sometimes is just maturity and Maybe he knew that

He was out of options and that he had to play and maybe that’s what he needed to hear. You’re going to play. So don’t screw it up, but you’re going to play. And maybe that’s what worked for him. And meanwhile, Manzardos, you know, hitting for power.

Santana will probably continue to play better as the temperature rises. And so there they are. I I don’t know how they’re 25 and 17. Of course, I didn’t know how they won 92 games or whatever it was last year.

David Campbell (01:01:03.291)

Yeah, and they’ve got a lot of guys in the next month or two that could be coming back from stuff. they might get some reinforcements here pretty soon and we’ll see how that all shakes out.

Terry Pluto (01:01:08.822)

Yeah. Right. I mean, a year, a month from now, know, brutal brutal could be back a month from now. but Sonic could be on a tear. I mean, there could be a lot of things like that. maybe a month from now, big Christmas puts his act together down there and they bring them back. but the nice thing is the way they do business with, you know, they’re creating opportunities for their players and that.

continues to pay off for them. It bothers me about Lively though, cause it was kind of like, could always could count on him for five or six innings and that’s a tough one. Yeah.

David Campbell (01:01:47.077)

Yeah, now they don’t have that. Well, at least Ortiz is starting to put some starts together and they’ve got some other, not everybody’s not down at the same time as we’ve seen in the past.

Terry Pluto (01:01:52.62)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:01:56.81)

Right. And, and, and, you know, they, they liked Ortiz, they targeted Ortiz and that’s why they traded, him and his for him, you know, as a convoluted deal through, through teens. But this is a guy they targeted. I always kind of watch the guys they target and see if the judgment is right or not. And I think they’re going to be right with Ortiz. He’s, he’s got enough, you know, good stuff and

It’s hard to find guys that you look at and say he could pitch five or six innings in modern baseball. Don’t ask me how we’ve ever got to that point. There’s a guy though seven, you want to build a statue to him. I don’t know how you, know, where you get that, but that’s how it is today.

David Campbell (01:02:42.119)

All right, I want to ask you about the reinstatements that came up, but we got a quick email here from Joe Curry in Youngstown, and Joe wants to ask about the rule changes. He says, hey Terry and Dave, now that MLB is a couple of years into the rules changes, how do the players and umpires like them? Do they favor the clock, GhostRunner, and larger bases? Again, that’s from Joe Curry in Youngstown. Thanks, Joe. I can’t speak for the umpires. I don’t know that the umpires have been asked. I mean, the umpires don’t like it when they’re, yeah, and.

Terry Pluto (01:03:06.093)

Yeah, it’s more for them to do. Yeah, they’re more for them to do.

David Campbell (01:03:11.547)

But I think the players and the fans universally like all this stuff, right?

Terry Pluto (01:03:15.692)

Yeah, they stopped complaining about it. And I’m glad they got off of, well, this pitch clock is why these guys arms are getting hurt. They’ve getting hurt for 25 years. Just stop with that. You know, they’re getting hurt because you want everybody to throw 98 miles an hour and have a spin rate that’s like faster than, you know, the planet Saturn. That’s why they’re getting hurt. And

David Campbell (01:03:38.181)

Yeah, I do think the players like the Ghostrunner because there’s no more 20 inning games that make them late for their playing. I think it’s more exciting for the fans. The larger bases, steals are up. think steals are higher than they’ve been in years, which is something that MLB wanted. And yeah, you just talked about the clock, so.

Terry Pluto (01:03:41.676)

Yeah. Exactly.

Terry Pluto (01:03:49.486)

Hmm?

Terry Pluto (01:03:53.718)

And they also think it was going to help guys, avoid injuries. You know, it, the purest to me, it was a little tougher. couldn’t really go barreling into second base on a double player at home plate. But in the end, you really want your guys healthy and it’s kind of a bad way to get hurt. And the nice thing about the bigger base too is like a lot of times you would see.

David Campbell (01:04:10.715)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:04:16.834)

When that ball would roll down the first base, the first base and pick it up and throw it to the pitcher as he goes to cover and the runner would get there at the same time. And that base is smaller and something, you know, somebody stepping on somebody’s ankle or injuries happen that way this way with that big base, you know, you could just kind of put your foot on the corner of it and avoid injuries that way too.

David Campbell (01:04:38.599)

I’m even seeing some colleges are using the the rec softball base where there’s a regular first base in the field of play and then there’s like another one connected to it in the that’s foul. So there’s two bases, one for the runner and one for the yeah. So I don’t know if that’ll ever come to MLB. It seems like the larger base, like you said, might be working, but something to watch.

Terry Pluto (01:04:50.904)

That’s interesting. Yeah.

I mean, you know, man, I give him a ton of credit because he really stepped up here and did some things that needed to be done in the face of a lot of criticism and the guardians, you know, they do a lot of research on, you know, do you like to, I’ve talked before about how I really liked the new stuff they put in the terrorist club where it was and, you know, that kind of thing. And that’s why they changes. But the other thing fans universally.

like the faster pace of play. And by the way, it’s not like a supersonic baseball. I think the average game time is like 233, which was in 1984, my last year covering the tribe.

David Campbell (01:05:39.257)

It’s working. It’s all working. So, all right, real quick, Terry, you mentioned commissioner Manfred. He announced Tuesday that he has changed the league’s policy on permanent ineligibility and that bands are now going to expire after someone’s die, after someone dies. So all members of the 1919 black socks, the Chicago black socks from the scandal when they threw the world series, Pete Rose and, some other people, Benny Kauf, former New York giants outfielder.

Terry Pluto (01:05:40.344)

We are.

David Campbell (01:06:07.591)

They’re all reinstated. I don’t know, I’ll have look that up. But what do you think of all this? there’s been a lot of people down in Cincinnati who’ve been clamoring for Pete Rose to be in the Hall of Fame for years. He passed away, I think, in September at age 83. But how do you feel about all this? Do you think it was time? Is this the right move?

Terry Pluto (01:06:08.92)

Wonder what he did to get suspended. I don’t know. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:06:18.083)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (01:06:27.554)

Well, had Rose been on the ballot as a player, I would have voted for him. I also would, with the caveat of you ain’t never managing, you’re not coaching, you’re not doing that. The gambling takes you out of that. But as a player, yes, I would have voted for him. So I’m glad to see that, there. That’s my feeling. She was Joe. You know, I’ve got, I’ve read a fair amount of stuff on the, on the black, on the black sock scandal and.

He might have like at some point taken some money, but he certainly didn’t throw the games. I forgot what he hit like 384 or something like that in the world series. And you know, he was all over the place. you know, either he didn’t understand or he just figured I’ll take the money and just play ball anyway. so that was always an interesting one. And, I’m, I’m glad they did it. want to, I don’t know.

If we, the regular baseball writers will get to vote on these guys or if they’re going to have it all run through some kind of new committee or what? Yeah, something like that. Could be the suspended committee. I don’t know.

David Campbell (01:07:30.329)

like the veteran committee or the reinstatement committee or something? Yeah. So Pete Rose will be eligible in 2028 and so will Shoeless Joe Jackson. They both will be on the ballot, looks like that.

Terry Pluto (01:07:42.612)

Somebody said there might have been a point another reason they may have waited till after Rose passed away They may not have wanted him to give a Hall of Fame speech

David Campbell (01:07:53.206)

Yeah, it might have been vindictive, right? And who knows? Yeah. Hey, well, you never know when time passes and somebody’s in front of the Hall of Fame and what they’re gonna do. He might have played it straight.

Terry Pluto (01:07:54.328)

They’re conscious of that. Yeah. No, no, you don’t. But I mean, I remember sitting with Pete Rose. Now granted, this is in the middle nineties. his son, Petey Jr. Was in camp with the tribe. It’s spring training. And I heard Pete was down there watching Petey down in the minor league diamonds. Roberta was with me. So we went down. I introduced myself.

Sitting there and yeah, come on, sit down. So he was talked to me and Roberta for about five innings. And he says stuff like, you know, I was the only, I was the only guilty guy in prison. Nobody else did anything, you know, you know, they got me on tax evasion. He’s like Al Capone, tax evasion. So this is what you would have gotten. I’m sure at the beach. And then he was talking about Petey and you know, how Petey’s a good kid and plays so hard. And he said, you know, it’s really tough being Pete Rose Jr. in this. And he just.

David Campbell (01:08:37.415)

You

David Campbell (01:08:43.014)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:08:54.016)

He was delightful. It was really funny, but I could see why they may not want to let that thing loose on Hall of Fame day. Cause you don’t know what he was going to say. And I, I remember writing that story and I wrote, I think I wrote a story a years ago when he, or rather was it last year he passed away? Yeah. I think I did write about, you know, him with that, that day. And I got a lot of emails from generally from people that all ran into Rose somewhere or other. And they just, they said he was some character, you know, he.

David Campbell (01:09:04.806)

Yeah.

David Campbell (01:09:10.971)

Yeah, when he passed away, yeah, in September.

Terry Pluto (01:09:24.76)

They liked them. Even those who don’t like them ended up kind of liking them. know? Yeah, that, yeah, this was not some guy just signed Dorotograph and didn’t look at you. He’s saying some stuff.

David Campbell (01:09:25.627)

You meet him, you won’t forget him. Yeah, you remember it, that’s for sure.

David Campbell (01:09:33.831)

Yeah. All right. Let’s see. So I was sick last week, and I think I mentioned that I didn’t get through all the emails. We’ve been kind of inviting people over the last few months to send in memories of some games they were at, or also you came up with the idea, Terry, of when you listened to games when you were a kid, maybe when you weren’t supposed to. And also I just realized I didn’t pull that Orioles Wall Street Journal story that we talked about last week about the four starters. So I’ll see if can get that for next week.

Terry Pluto (01:09:53.166)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (01:10:01.799)

But here’s a couple of emails we have to wrap up with This one first one is from Mark in Chicago and Mark says I was in the backyard throwing a tennis ball against the garage And I had taken the radio outside as usual and then I’m hearing the broadcast. I know it was Herb score I don’t remember if it was Joe Tate then on play-by-play of all the mayhem that happened as the game ensued or tried to and I was simply astounded the next day there was a picture in the Cleveland press of someone with a stack of 27 empty beer cups and I realized

that what was described on the radio was no joke at all. was Tencent Beer Nights. The radio team did a great job of trying their best to capture the scene unfolding in the moment. I should dig online if there’s any capture of what they had broadcast. It’s kind of history as it happened. So there’s Mark in Chicago. He remembers this. Okay.

Terry Pluto (01:10:35.352)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:10:46.506)

It was Joe Tate who did the game. And Tate told me that some of the policemen were kind of just kind of driving around listening to it. And they heard this and they just came down to the stadium because they realized, you know, Joe made it sound like the ballpark was going to collapse and there would be blood on the bases, which I guess is fairly close.

David Campbell (01:11:07.983)

Yeah. That’s something. Well, thanks for that one, Mark. And our last one here is from Nate Clear. And Nate is from Sandusky. And Nate says, I was eight years old in 1995, when the Indians made it to the World Series, and that magical season hooked me for life. My brother and I would always listen to the games on the radio. Our parents were pretty strict about our 9.30 PM bedtime, but they gave us a little leeway to keep listening from bed.

as the games wrapped up. Fast forward to Sunday, August 5th, 2001. We were listening as the tribe was absolutely getting clobbered by the Mariners. At some point, my dad walked by our room, heard the lopsided score and said, all right, boys, shut it off and go to sleep. My brother obeyed. I, however, pulled the classic move, turned the volume way down and tucked the radio under the covers. You probably know where this is going. Hours later, after midnight, Cleveland completed one of the greatest comebacks in baseball history.

Terry Pluto (01:11:40.251)

yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:11:54.902)

Mmm.

David Campbell (01:12:01.489)

Kenny Lofton scored from second base in the bottom of the ninth to walk it off, capping a rally from a 12 run deficit. I was under the blankets, silently screaming quote unquote and pumping my fist like a lunatic, trying not to wake anyone up and blow my cover. It was a good pun there. Didn’t want to blow his cover. The next morning I had to pretend to be surprised when we saw the headline in the paper. Love the podcast guys. Keep it up again. That’s Nate Clear from Sandusky. That’s a wonderful story. Thanks Nate and childhood.

Terry Pluto (01:12:10.862)

you

Hahaha

Terry Pluto (01:12:18.349)

Damn!

David Campbell (01:12:30.585)

Radio memories are always fun ones.

Terry Pluto (01:12:32.746)

And the great thing, I was talking with Tom Hamilton about this, know, so much has changed with media. You know, if you watch a broadcast, even from the nineties or even the seventies, certainly there, how much more goes on the way they bring the game to you now with all the graphics and the analytics and the computers and stuff. Baseball and radio sounds sort of the same. Maybe they have a few more stats, but that’s it.

David Campbell (01:12:57.297)

Yeah, it’s wonderful, isn’t it?

Terry Pluto (01:13:00.418)

ball one, strike one, boy, it’s a beautiful day. Here comes a manager and now he steps out. I mean, you’re still doing the same and you know, and everybody needs to get a Toyota or how about this time for a beer? I mean, it’s the same stuff. You know, it’s, it’s just, I mean, maybe, yeah.

David Campbell (01:13:11.643)

Hahaha!

Yeah.

I remember listening to Harry Carey and Jimmy Pearsall doing the white socks in the 1970s and Harry would just be like, there’s a home run, let’s have another fall staff just in the middle of the broadcast.

Terry Pluto (01:13:28.17)

Right. Well, I mean, it was like, I remember the, when the tribe had turned a double places, Jimmy Devlin, the sixties, you know, and, you know, there it is, you know, the, the turn of double play and he goes, and it’s time for cons cons, the wiener, the world awaited all beef hot dogs. And they just, I guess they bought into like, if there’s a double play or something else, it was time for a cons of win, which my grandfather.

David Campbell (01:13:53.233)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:13:56.302)

Love cons wieners and I ate them. spent a fair amount of time at grandpa classic’s house on the East side and, and we certainly did. and they were good wieners. I don’t know if it’s still around. Yeah. Cause the wiener, the world awaited.

David Campbell (01:14:07.281)

Yeah, the wieners that the world awaited. love that. Hey, so I was just thinking, Terry, we are in middle of May here and Tom Hamilton is going to be inducted into the Hall of Fame this July. And I was wondering, we should ask our listeners if you have Tom Hamilton. We talked about people meeting Pete Rose, but I would love it if our listeners could maybe email in some stories or memorable moments with Tom Hamilton during his career. And we can maybe start reading those as we get closer to July. What do you think of that?

Terry Pluto (01:14:21.091)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (01:14:32.29)

That would be great.

Yeah, that would be, that would be really good. And, and kind of too, if you want to, I’d be interested to see, rate your favorite, tribe play by play guys over the years. see. It’s your top three or top five or whatever. Yeah. Cause I mean, it’s a, it’s a tough, mean, right now, Jimmy Dudley is in the hall of fame and Hamilton’s in the hall of fame. And, what was his name? Granger. I can’t, I’m having a hard time. There’s somebody else.

David Campbell (01:14:46.076)

yeah, that’d be fun too. And tell us why in memorable moments from each one.

Terry Pluto (01:15:03.598)

It was the real early days of radio from Cleveland. He’s in the hall of fame. know, Joe Tate’s in the basketball hall of fame. did, he did the tribe for 10 years on radio and I think another 10 or 15 on TV. so they’ve had a lot of good ones. Mike Keegan was very good too. I remember that and you know, Rosie is a perfect kind of straight man and whatever for, for Hamilton.

David Campbell (01:15:26.661)

Yeah, Cleveland’s been really fortunate to have some outstanding, outstanding broadcasters through the years. So yeah, again, send in some Tom Hamilton stories and like Terry said, some, if you want to rank some of your favorites through the years, yeah, send them in sports at cleveland.com, email us. And if you want to put Tom Hamilton or broadcasters in the headline, we will grab those and we’ll start reading those. We have a nice run up here with some time to kind of do some memorable stories about Tom Hamilton and connecting with the fans. So, all right, I think that’s it. Terry, you got anything else for this week?

Terry Pluto (01:15:36.049)

Right on, yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:15:55.562)

That’s it for me.

David Campbell (01:15:56.879)

All right, I think we’re going to try and tape early, maybe on Monday next week. And so let’s do that. Enjoy your sports week. We will catch you next time on Terry’s Talkin.